Curse

Fril Estelin · Nov 19, 2007, 10:22 PM // 22:22

I first thought that the idea was bad, because you may "attach" it to the bandwagon of the /report feature. But after 2nd thoughts, I realised that (well at least in the OP's view) this feature would only bring "cosmetic changes", no in-game advantage per se.

Considering how easy it would be to implement, that it could not be "hijacked" (only cosmetic) and that it could potentially bring some benefits to the game via incentive for good behavior (directly between players), I think I would /sign for it.

The only two downsides to this feature would be if people started expecting other to give them "cookies" after good actions, and the "collusion" of friends (may be limit the feature to people not in your guild and friends list? though this is a very limited counter-measure; as mentioned above and similar to /report, limit the number of use). But as long as it would not affect the game, a majority of people would not care (and greedy/nasty people would not!).

But it may create enough incentives and a better ambiance? Generosity ftw!

Morgenstern · Nov 19, 2007, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazy diamond

Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.

For some reason I was laughing un-controlably for about 5 mins after reading this

On topic : I like the idea, anything to make GW a happier place!

/signed

Diddy bow · Nov 19, 2007, 11:23 PM // 23:23

It would be a nice idea, aside from the obvious ways to abuse it...

Say, you can only ever give a guy /thanks once, meaning that you cant just buff up using guidess over and over. A limit on how often you can do it could help, but that would be retriced if you got 2 people helping you, must you chose one?

Really the whole idea of helping people is, you either help them for money, and if you dont want money, dont expect anything but a good felling ^^.

thedeadlyassassin · Nov 19, 2007, 11:29 PM // 23:29

/not signed. as it's been said before, it'd be more abused then used.

Darkobra · Nov 19, 2007, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by anonymous

I don't want to see artificial kindness. People should be nice because they are a nice person, not to get some reward from /thank.

Exactly. That's why I hate people who smile without sincerity. Even in my job I don't do it. It's far too easy for people to hide who they are, especially when a reward is taken into consideration. In this case: /thank.

Surely a simple "thank you" is gratitude enough. If you truly wanted to reward these people, return the favour some other time to either that person or helping out someone like they helped you.

In-game rewards for doing the right thing? Why bother? There shouldn't need to be an incentive to do the right thing. It should just come natural. That's what's wrong with this world in the first place.

Fril Estelin · Nov 19, 2007, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diddy bow

Really the whole idea of helping people is, you either help them for money, and if you dont want money, dont expect anything but a good felling ^^.

Exactly! And this /thank is exactly that: good feeling! Plus a nice transparent wings (or a little white circle floating above your head...) for 10-60 minutes, or a /i_am_cool emote, or a nice shiny icon "I Feel Good (TM)"

Contrarily to others here, I don't think it's "artificial". Or not more than "virtual reward" is. Calling it a "reward" would be too much, as it would not really bring an advantage (people would very easily not see that as an advantage; even those that would start bragging about it would actually tell us that they're retarded

).

I really like this idea, I don't think this has even been tried on a big scale

Fril Estelin · Nov 19, 2007, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

In-game rewards for doing the right thing? Why bother? There shouldn't need to be an incentive to do the right thing. It should just come natural. That's what's wrong with this world in the first place.

Interesting. And why do you bother giving your opinion when you don't bother about the rewards?

(apart from that, agree that the world should be different, but one has to be realistic to change the world and have an open-mind so as to "break the vicious circle")

Zahr Dalsk · Nov 19, 2007, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Whatever happened to people just saying, "Hey, thanks for the help, I really appreciate it."? We don't need an emote for this, we need less assholes in Guild Wars, that or a 7-hero cap.

Darkobra · Nov 20, 2007, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Interesting. And why do you bother giving your opinion when you don't bother about the rewards?

(apart from that, agree that the world should be different, but one has to be realistic to change the world and have an open-mind so as to "break the vicious circle")

Because, ironically, the response came naturally to me. And to be more open-minded, we have to understand that there can be people who genuinely help with no reward because that's how they are as a person. People who help for money, on the other hand, are only after the money itself.

Fril Estelin · Nov 20, 2007, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

Because, ironically, the response came naturally to me.

That's not really the answer to "why". So let's try again with another question: why would you not want this feature to be implemented?

Quote:

And to be more open-minded, we have to understand that there can be people who genuinely help with no reward because that's how they are as a person.

That's not being open-minded, that's being realistic. This /thanks feature does not deny that there're generous people, it simply confirms it! By bein open-minded, I meant to say open to the possibility that this feature would be an incentive to those people who may not do it "naturally" (so to say) and possibly something to reinforce the self-esteem of generous people.

Think about this: each of these "genuinely" (may be this connotated word is really what you're saying, i.e. a /thanks feature would make generosity not genuine?) people will have encountered asses that do not thank at all, or even worse show them disrespect after their act of kindness. It's incredibly easy to "destroy", compared to "build", and such bad actions weight very heavily in people's mind. (that's one symptom of the non-symmetry of /report and /thanks, but I'm digressing). The /thanks can potentially make the constructive behavior of thanking people a reinforcing element of people sharing with the community.

Of course, exactly like for the /report feature, if in practice it wouldn't work, it should be removed immediatly. But as I said before, I don't think this could happen, because it wouldn't bring an "advantage". At worse, it could make more obvious who's bragging or asking for attention, but these people would be ignored. The "genuinely" generous people would simply ignore the benefit, or possibly have a nice good feeling about themselves when they see this little thing ove rtheir head or what happens when they type /i_feel_good (they should be able to disable this bonus if it is visible with a /no_thanks).

Quote:

People who help for money, on the other hand, are only after the money itself.

What's the relationship with the topic here?

Fril Estelin · Nov 20, 2007, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Whatever happened to people just saying, "Hey, thanks for the help, I really appreciate it."?

Well, how such a feature prevent them from doing that?

Quote:

We don't need an emote for this, we need less assholes in Guild Wars, that or a 7-hero cap.

Funnily, that reminds me of the first few comments made when the news of the /report feature came out. "that's not the solution", "we need less leechers", "don't nerf the metagame". That's what I called "closemindedness" (no offense, sorry if the wording is a bit strong, please note that I'm not a native English speaker), meaning that people do not believe that the game features can actually help alleviate people's problems and create incentives for good behaviors (or that these feature make these behavior not so good, or "genuine"?).

In other words, this sentence you juste wrote is purely and simply equivalent to "let's do nothing and wait for people to stop being asses". Unfortunately, as the real world shows, that's not going to happen.

Bankai · Nov 20, 2007, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Fril, have you ever played a game where they have a system like a /thank system?

I think not. If you did, you must surely remember the thousands of people trying to buy and sell /thanks.

Fril Estelin · Nov 20, 2007, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

Fril, have you ever played a game where they have a system like a /thank system?

As I was saying before, I don't know of any system that implements such a system. Do you know of one? (I suspect the "security" midset is at fault here, as people tend to ignore incentives for positive behaviors instead of preventing negative behaviors)

Quote:

I think not. If you did, you must surely remember the thousands of people trying to buy and sell /thanks.

Please, share your experience with us! I feel people are reacting similarly to the /report feature, i.e. very negatively, but that didn't prevent Anet from making the bold move. And I think it was a rather good success (though not complete).

Let's try to be constructive here, meaning both arguments in favor or against should be argumented and if possible weighted against other aspects (at the level of the community, not at the level of "myself").

Darkobra · Nov 20, 2007, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Like I said, the people who genuinely help and receive a "thank you" is enough to boost their self esteem. And I've already stated clearly why I don't want it implemented.

"HELPING FOR PRO/THXK?!"

Then we come to Guru.

"OMG I LIEK SPENT AEGES HELPING SUM SCRUB AND HE LIEK NO /THX ME!"

Yeah. There are people who genuinely help and then there are people who just want instant gratitude and bragging rights. Let me put it to you this way. Who's better? A man who gives to charity and keeps his business to himself or a man who gives to charity and brags about how amazing he is?

Now for the real reason it definitely won't be implemented. /reports are heavily moderated to prevent abuse. Why would they waste time and money on moderation of the /thanks feature? They won't. It will easily be abused. It's easy for us to thank someone, but we need them to ban the rulebreakers for us.

arcanemacabre · Nov 20, 2007, 10:45 AM // 10:45

/agree with Darkorba. It's a noble idea, but the implementation would be left with a hollow feeling, and do more bad than good. Something like this would not convert anyone from apathetic or malevolent into perfect helpful little citizens, and those who are already helpful will not be encouraged more by a system like this, since they do so without concern for reward.

/notsigned

Fril Estelin · Nov 20, 2007, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

Who's better? A man who gives to charity and keeps his business to himself or a man who gives to charity and brags about how amazing he is?

Binary decision FTW? You know, the world is FAR from being black and white, on one side the "genuinely kind people" and on the other side "those waiting to brag for /thanks", don't you the thousands of other possibilities in the middle?

Quote:

Now for the real reason it definitely won't be implemented. /reports are heavily moderated to prevent abuse. Why would they waste time and money on moderation of the /thanks feature? They won't. It will easily be abused. It's easy for us to thank someone, but we need them to ban the rulebreakers for us.

In security you always differentiate vulnerability (the door by which a malware enters) and exploit (the actual harm that the malware does once it passed the "door"/vulnerability). The /report feature has both, while the /thanks has only vulnerabilities and no exploit. What you introduce as "abuse" is not, because it won't change the actual situation about bragging, just make it explicit. As I said before, it's about making good people feel good, not arrogant get more bragging rights as they already have the maximum (you n00b? I hate this intellectual shortcut which virtually puts people on their own throne of superiority ... though it's actually helpful to know these people). One can even imagine giving Dishonor points for asking for /thanks (it's a bit extreme but can always be brought later if too many people are bragging)

As you said, it is easy for "us" to thank someone, and it would be easy to give to the kind-hearted a little "plus" for their generosity. As I said before, this feature has never (to my knowledge) been implemented on a big scale, the Ebay system uses forums and nice icons to provide "self-esteem" marks to people, but this is very basic (it's actually funny to see people give good ratings and bad comments for fear of retaliation, but I'm digressing again). Trying to promote "positive values" would be the boldest move ever done, wouldn't it?

(I'm actually trying to defend this feature, but I'm very realistic: there's an extremely low probability that it'll ever get implemented due to the fact that negative opinions about this feature will weight more than positive ones, it'd be the safest route for Anet in particular after having introduced the /report feature)

Fril Estelin · Nov 20, 2007, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

convert anyone from apathetic or malevolent into perfect helpful little citizens

<do not take this too seriously>
Well, we'll have to vote for Labour or Conservative, or Republican or Democrats, won't we? There's no wya third way people, no shades of grey, no nuance in life, get used to it!
</do not take this too seriously>

Quote:

and those who are already helpful will not be encouraged more by a system like this, since they do so without concern for reward.

Of course, similarly to those who are not "mean" people will not be hurt by the /report feature, because it's not aimed at them. If they don't care about it, they will simply ignore it, won't they? (I even mentioned the suggestion to have the /no_thanks to disable this feature)

silv3rr · Nov 20, 2007, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

"OMG I LIEK SPENT AEGES HELPING SUM SCRUB AND HE LIEK NO /THX ME!"

It is that reason itself that people won't abuse it...

Based on what you said, if greedy people were to go around helping just for the /thanks, the moment they don't get /thank'd, they'll feel that helping people just for the /thanks was a waste of time, therefore abuse = gone.

Also, why would greedy people bother helping people when the rewards aren't all that beneficial? It's JUST a temporary cosmetic, it has no value.

People (the same people you pointed out in your black & white explanation of the world) that are genuinely friendly and helpful won't give it a moments thought if the person they were helping didn't /thank them. People like that already exist in a world without a /thank feature.

Quote:

Who's better? A man who gives to charity and keeps his business to himself or a man who gives to charity and brags about how amazing he is?

We already have elitists that gloat about other things.

Quote:

Now for the real reason it definitely won't be implemented. /reports are heavily moderated to prevent abuse. Why would they waste time and money on moderation of the /thanks feature? They won't. It will easily be abused. It's easy for us to thank someone, but we need them to ban the rulebreakers for us.

Why would that matter? /thanks do not need any moderation, I don't see why it does since the "rewards" are only temporary cosmetics.

I'm not being hostile towards you in any way, but I just don't see why this /thanks would become an "abuse" issue like /report. This has less affect on the player-base than /report does.

Spam is also not an issue, people spam other emotes already, and that's why we have an "emote" check-box.

As for client side performance lag, I imagine this would be considered a "post-process" effect, so that can be turned off... chances are, if the people that can't handle a town-full of /thank'd people, then they probably have their graphics settings on pretty low.

/signed

EDIT: Forgot to add this, doesn't ANet already have like rewards for exceptionally kind citizens? Player of the week kind of thing? That lucky person would be given prizes of sorts.

Fril Estelin · Nov 20, 2007, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by silv3rr

EDIT: Forgot to add this, doesn't ANet already have like rewards for exceptionally kind citizens? Player of the week kind of thing? That lucky person would be given prizes of sorts.

Good point. There was a section "Random Acts of kindness" in the Scribe (but it seems it's not around any more?)

Lexxor · Nov 20, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

/signed

I think it should only give you a temporary title, and that people can only /thank ( or /ty ) once per hour. And not on anyone in your own guild to partially limit the chance of exploit.